Why kick a pulling mule?

[Southpaw Slim]

I understand the argument for both sides, and I must iterate some issues. So for the easiest layout, I'm going to break it down field by field.

Raimondi
Some say Raimondi is better. There's a huge draw toward regulation play, as everyone involved had dreams of playing on a major league field at one point or another, and so far Raimondi is the closest we've found to that. The fence distances are marked, there's an actual pitcher's mound, there are larger dugouts, and the atmosphere is more isolated. I actually like the change in scenery. And I agree the play is much more similar to major league low-scoring games. My favorite part about the park is the retracted backstop. It actually gives the catcher an opportunity to make an out and raises the stakes for the hitter.

However, there's a huge downside to playing there which I think everyone so far has either overlooked or managed to leave out: the field is so large, it can get boring. Playing the outfield is not as appealing since there's so much ground to cover. And if the ball is hit to the infield, there's time to set for an accurate throw and the guaranteed out. But since the basepaths are so long, only a select few could make it to the next base on the occasional overthrown ball. There isn't quite as high a demand for quick fielding. It puts less pressure on the fielding team, and therefore allows their focus to wander... and that leads to lost interest. Making the game uninteresting is by far the worst that could happen.

DeFremery
DeFremery park is a bandbox park similar to Fenway with the tall fence in left. It also has the added aesthetic of trees inside fair territory in right field. I can't think of any other field with trees in a playable area. It's somewhat small (expecially when visually compared to Raimondi, with the open area behind the fence) but has tremendous charm. It's in the heart of a neighborhood where there's always some activity going on. I like the sound of basketball and cars while we play. I love the huge oak tree overhanging the fence in left, perhaps the largest oak I've ever seen. I like having people from the area interact with us. I like inspiring local kids to play baseball. I also like the ability to rob a home run, which Raimondi lacks.

The play at DeFremery is of much greater intensity. Every fielder has to be on his toes, even the RF since any ball through the right side could easily turn into a triple. It keeps all our heads in the game, and leads to great drama and great baseball. The shift in momentum during games fuels my drive to play. I like the idea that my team can come back from a 9-run deficit in the bottom of the ninth. It makes every single play that much more important. There's an incredible value on that intensity.

The communication among a team is much easier, which is a vital aspect of teamplay. In Raimondi, I wouldn't even think to tell the RF to shade the line if I'm playing the left side. There would be a minute chance of me even catching his attention. But at DeFremery, if I had my back to the plate and had to know where to throw, even the catcher could tell me. I like that the team is more involved. It's something that draws me to the games we play.

Baseball isn't just a game for me, it's a chance to get together with a group of friends and have fun. That's why I like playing DeFremery. I've gone to games there every other week (and sometimes more) for almost 2 whole years now, and there's a reason. The same reason this place is called DeFremery Park Baseball!

Don't get me wrong, I like the play at Raimondi. Sometimes, it's great to spread out and have a chance to see how good you really can be. But I don't play to see what I could do on a regulation field. I play for the action of the game, and I like my home runs too. If we'd played at Raimondi all this time, we'd still be struggling to get enough people for 2 teams if it even could have lasted this long. I understand we already have enough people for a guaranteed turnout as it stands now, but I play for the fun of it. Raimondi is without the unique coziness that DeFremery has. Although the change was refreshing, it feels more like a practice field and not a game field.

Vote DeFremery or die!

[retep]

Thanks Nick, for reminding us what brings us to the park. I agree with everything that you wrote.

[Baseball=Life]

Great post, Nick. It brings up a lot of the intangibles omitted elsewhere. And as organizer I will certainly push and organize for most likely 1 game a month at DeFremery (the days that kids' football team isn't there).

I called Oakland Parks & Rec the other day, and now I think the requirements are dependant on whom you talk to there. Unlike the one-time fee the kids' football coach implied would be the case, I was told to expect a $15 per session fee. She said no deposit, and no insurance required (unlike what site says). So we'd have to all sign the waiver, and kick down the $15 per session (or $30 if we go 2 sessions and feel it's necessary to be honest). I mean, that's $60-120 a month for weekly games. And apparently the fees are going to go up starting July 1st. She wouldn't tell me the current schedules for the fields, but she did say that Oakland Parks & Rec "keep Sunday open for adults" and that "most fields will be open on Sundays".

So................... I think what I said in the other post might be the best way to go......

We would need to figure out what are the acceptable fields that are relatively close to one another, such as DeFremery & Raimondi. Then, just have a willingness to get up and switch fields as it becomes necessary. It really didn't provide that bad of a delay in the 2/13 game. One thing's for sure, the city/authorities aren't going to come push us off a field---it's only if a valid registered user comes, then we'd have to leave. This strategy obviously eliminates a lot of the paperwork issues.

So I'm talking basically about Squatting versus Paying Legit. We've been squatting so far, and this was only the 2nd time in 2+ years that it became an issue. It's probably a valid long-term strategy, we just need to ID all the valid fields. Like I said before, I'll post on my FIELD TOUR results from tomorrow.

[retep]

I agree.... its public land! I say we try to stay there when we can.

[Baseball=Life]

Hey, before I head out on the FIELD TOUR, I'm realizing there's some location catagories:

DeFremery, Raimondi, Poplar, Lowell (obvious location)

Allendale, Brookdale, Curt Flood (off 580 in between High & 35th)

Central Reservoir, Franklin, Garfield (East Oakland, east 18th st & 23rd ave area)

Coliseum, Greenman (off 880, 66th Ave, near A's Stadium)

Brookfield, John Marshall, McConnell, Elmhurst, Stone Hurst, Tassafaronga, King Estates Jr (off 98th st, near International, near Bancroft, near San Leandro St)

and 3 fields that don't fit in the above catagories: Burkhalter, Jones Pinto, & Montclair.

[BostonMike]

Nice camparison of De Fremery being like Fenway, next time we play there thats all i'lll think of now. I like Ramoindi but who wants to get tired running to 2nd.

[Baseball=Life]

Ok, I just got back from checking about 12 fields. Some interesting results.

First of all, I never realized how great DeFremery & Raimondi are until I saw these other parks and was able to put them into perspective. That having been said, there was still some interesting stuff out there>>>>

First, the group near DeFremery (our "home" park). Obviously you've seen DeFremery & Raimondi and know what those have to offer. For those who don't know, there's a nearby park called Lowell, but it's terrible for several reasons, such as no fence, too small, lack of adequate cage behind home plate, etc. But, do not despair, there appears to be one more valid option near our Home Park and Raimondi.... and that Field is...

Poplar It is at the Poplar Community Recreation Center (3131 Union St). It's at like 30th & Poplar, and is off of Peralta St. So it's very near DeFremery. Anyway, some details about Poplar: It has a good cage behind home plate to stop foul balls. It has a small mound. It has what I'll call a "DeFremery Infield". It's accessible, ie appears to not be locked up on a permanent basis. The entire thing is fenced. The fence down the 3rd and 1st base line is about 7', so you could reach up over it to make a catch of a foul ball. RF has a 30 foot fence. This extends to CF, where, in dead CF there is a HR-robbing section of 8-9' fence that extends in dead CF for about 25'. I think it would be possible to snatch some HRs at this point of the park. There are tall trees lining the fence on the 3B & 1B side, all the way from home plate to the outfield. These trees are on the other side of the fence, ie out of play. Now, as for LF, it is very interesting in that it is the community center itself. The HR-rob fence I mentioned goes right up snug to the building, and the building goes all the way over to the 3rdbase line where that 7' fence is. The building is shaped to where it is a flat wall that extends from the ground up about 20' (like DeFremery, but cement rather than chain-link fence). At that point, it becomes the roof. So HomeRuns to LF would be those hits that hit the roof itself. Anything off the big wall would be playable. So it could be very interesting. Now, as for the all-important question of dimensions...... I found it hard to tell, and there were no markings. I think it's similar to DeFremery. We'll need an ariel comparison on this one. I hope it's adequately big enough (especially taking the tall building and tall fences into account), because it's conveniently located to DeFremery/Raimondi, unlikely to be in use, and has the perks mentioned above.

So, now, as for the parks that didn't fit into any of the catagories mentioned in my post above this post, at least one was of interest, and that was

Jones Pinto .... Jones Pinto is at 5000 Redwood Rd, off Highway 13. It's near Holy Names College. It's where Redwood meets Crestmont, up in the hills. It has a warning track that borders the entire field, it has lights, it has bleachers on both sides, and it was well manicured. There was even an abandoned-looking chalking device on site. It has an infield a bit larger than DeFremery's. The fences throughout are about 10' tall. It has a good cage behind home to stop foul balls. It has a bathroom. The demensions are known because there was markers: LF - 263', CF - 250', RF - 256'. Behind the outfield are massive undeveloped hills, so the field is kinda in a valley. Homerun balls would be easily retrieved the way the field and the hills are set up. It is accessible. It's fairly near the Coaches and the Holy Names fields Anthony mentioned.

Near Jones Pinto was Montclair, but that place was weak. It has a tall fence in LF, probably 20'. But there's no fould fences or markers down the 3B/1B lines. Plus the outfield isn't level. Burkhalter, the other field that didn't fit a catagory, was too small and lacked foul fences as well.

As for the fields in East Oakland, near East 18th St.....Central Reservior doesn't exist (!), and my impression of Franklin and nearby Garfield are the following:

Franklin: I agree there was definite charm to Franklin (11th Ave & Franklin), but I don't think it's going to be accessible in terms of locked fences. Also, the cage behind home is too much--it will block incoming throws home from the outfield. There's stands and a 20' fence in LF and RF, but CF juts in in a weird manner. I have to vote against it.

Garfield: This field, at Foothill Blvd (aka 16th St.) & 23rd Ave, has lights and bleachers on one side. It has a good cage to block foul balls behind home plate. It has a small mound. There's a tall fence in all parts of the outfield, probably 20'. It is mowed, well kept. There's 2 trees in play. One tree is in dead CF, and is big. The other tree is big and is in LF. This tree will be the factor for this field.... It's really tall and may knock all HRs down back into play. That could be good or bad, depending how you look at it. Accessibility: debateable. Dimensions, need aerial perspective.

Moving on to the fields near A's stadium (Coliseum, Greenman, Curt Flood)..... I was really hoping these would work because it would be so cool to play with the Bay visible. Unfortunately, the field that this is the case for, Curt Flood, is not usable. It's big enough but there's a massive pile of dirt and weeds growing where home plate should be. Greenman is at Haver's Court middle school. There's 3 fields, but not quite usable. It's either way too short where there are fences, or no fences where it is big enough. Plus, a weak foul fence. Warning track RF-200', LF-200', CF-230'. Clearly not usable with the short fences especially. Coliseum also unusable.

Finally, a few fields that were near 98th st / Golf Links Rd. I only checked out Elmhurst, Stonehurst, and King Estates Jr., and none were adequate for various reasons.

So, I still need to check out Allendale & Brookdale in the 580-High St-35th area, and Brookfield, John Marshall, McConnell, and Tassafaronga in the 98th-International Blvd-Bancroft-SanLeandro area. I'll try to check those out tomorrow.

But clearly so far the best fields are: DeFremery, Raimondi, Poplar, Jones Pinto, and possibly Garfield. (aerial analysis would be appreciated if possible). Note: I'm not including the other fields you guys have checked out when I make this statement by the way.

I'll get back to you guys about the remaning fields. Hopefully, the ones mentioned already are sufficient. I think the DeFremery-Raimondi-Poplar system will probably be effective if we do go the Squatting route.

[tallguy]

I would just like to be the first to say: Wow, Scott - good job.

Also to throw in my opinion that Defremery rules. I guess no one will be surprised by me saying that!

[retep]

I still have my vote down to play at Defremery when we can... Maybe set a goal og at least 2-3 times a month.

I would vote against fields with CF having the same distance as LF and RF< since this would drasticlay increaes the already high number of HRs that we hit.

But awsome work, scott!

[Cuong]

Hella No! We're not going to leave Defremey, that's where I played my first ever baseball game. We should play different parks every week between Defremery and Raimond or whatever park. So if we're doing that are we still going to rent the park or whatever you call it and sign forms?

[gohlkus]

It might be interesting to try some of these other fields just for variety's sake (as long as we make sure everyone knows about it in advance).

You don't think we could landscape Curt Flood Park enough to use it? You've got the tools now.... Too bad a park named after one of the pioneering MLB free agents is in disrepair.

You know, you can roughly judge distances by walking and counting each of your strides and then multiplying it by 3 feet. I suppose I should have made that suggestion before you went on tour.

[Baseball=Life]

Well, to respond to Jason's suggestion about the Curt Flood field, I thought of that already, but it would require unknown hours of work. It's more of a shovel situation than a garden-weasel situation. But.... read on.... we can still pay tribute to one of the "pioneering MLB free agents" (Curt Flood)...

So, I just got back from checking out about 6 or 7 more fields. The good news is that several of them appear to be worth further consideration. I'll start with those...

Curt Flood (part 2) (Coolidge & School, near MLK Baptist Church, off 580)
This is actually a different "Curt Flood" from the one I mentioned in the prior post. Wierd, but, yes, there's 2 separate Curt Flood fields. This one, though not near the Bay like the other, is pretty good. It starts off with a better sign that even has a picture of former MLB Cardinal Curt Flood. It has an infield that I'd describe as "DeFremery Plus" size. It does have a grass inner infield and then a dirt infield beyond inside that inner diamond. It has a mound. It is definitely accessible. Stands on 3B side and also out past LF. Huge trees behind home plate and behind both dugouts. The cage behind home plate is adequate. It has a foul pole on the 3B side at least. It appears to be adequately deep to all outfields. RF has a tall 25' fence. CF, which is probably Raimondi distance if not further, has a gap in the fence that goes about 40 yards across. I think this is probably beyond play though. Starting where that gap ends in dead center, there is a neat wall that goes all the way over to the 3rd baseline. This wall is only about 7 feet, and even has a step at about 4 1/2 feet. "Step" meaning a little ledge you could climb up onto to reach up and rob a Home Run. Lots of Homerun-robbing potential at this field, which to me is a huge plus.

McConnell (7921 Olive St, near Olive & Ritchie, near Olive & 80th Ave, off 580)
Very interesting field. Similar infield to Curt Flood's described above, part grass in the inside diamond, then dirt. The infield dirt is very smooth & nice I noticed. Access appears to be no problem. There are bathrooms. Lights also. Stands on one side. Mound. Another "DeFremery Plus" size infield. Big trees in foul territory on both 1st base and 3rd base sides. LF was marked at 280', and there is a fould pole there. Large 25-30' fences in both LF and RF, which had unmarked distance. CF is deepest, also unmarked. It's another situation where there are 2 fields adjacent to one another, so deepest part of CF (probably beyond play) is the dirt infield of the other field. A plus other fields don't have are the big foul nets down the 3B side.

Arnerich Field in Washington Park (761 Central in Alameda... only like 5 minutes past the Webster tunnel near Jack London Square in downtown Oak.)
This field is accessible. It has a mound and an adequate cage behind home plate. Lights. Stands. Very smooth infield. RF marked at 341, dead CF marked at 421. LF unmarked. Foul poles both sides. In LF, there is a tall fence like DeFremery, and there is a even taller net above that fence. Like DeFremery, trees lining fence in outfield from 1st base line to dead CF (in play). This field is very near Alameda Beach, though it's not within sight. One drawback is that fouls hit down the 3B side would be hard to track down, doesn't have the netting system there (like McConnell).

Some of the other fields I saw weren't really up to standard, or weren't accessible:

Allendale (3711 Suter St -- off 580 between 35th & High)
Allendale has stands, and deep fences to all of the outfield (perhaps too deep, there are 2 adjacent fields opposing one another). I couldn't find access to the field however--all was locked. It looks like we'd probably have to climb the fence, which, to me, removes this for further consideration. Adequate cage behind home plate. DeFremery style infield. Small mound. Locked bathrooms. Lights.

Brookdale - "Schafer Field" --- no fences in OF, too small

John Marshall (3400 Malcolm off 580) - Too short to RF, unlike most fields. It's a shame, this field has a great view of the Bay Area right from the field. It would be a fun practice field. And my sense of distance isn't that good, maybe ariel anaysis would confirm RF isn't so close?

Bishop O'Dowd High School, totally inadequate cage behind home plate.

Brookfield & Tassafaronga : couldn't find.

So here's the final list of fields for further consideration: DeFremery, Raimondi, Poplar.... Jones Pinto, Garfield, Golden Gate, Chabot, Holy Names univ, Oakland High, Curt Flood, McConnell, Arnerich.

[BostonMike]

Baseball=Life wrote: We would need to figure out what are the acceptable fields that are relatively close to one another

The only problem with the people taking the bus is that some of the fields aren't reachable by bus. For me De Freemery is easy to get to right off the 14, but ramondi is a little hike especilly if your walking by yourself. So, maybe we could keep us bus takers in mind, i mean i don't mind the walk but what about other people.

[Rob C]

i think both Scott's original post on the subject and Nick's post were right on track. While it was nice to have a change, I personally prefere DeFramery (for all the reasons they stated).

As a practical matter, since we are going to be squatters (which we should be -considering the expensive alternative) we're going to have to be flexible and play where ever we can find a place. I for one am happy just to play, and really don't care where. Hell, even thowing some bases down in an open grass field is acceptable.

BTW-the poll gave only the choices of Deframery & Deframery Park. Maybe it should be run again--this time with the choices of 2 different fields. )

PS: Thanks Scott for all the time and effort you did researching the options.

[Tayster]

PS: Thanks Scott for all the time and effort you did researching the options.

Seconded.

You know... for me, as long as I get to play every week, I could care less where we play. I'm just happy to get out and play on a regular basis for the first time in years.