12 players

TheLegend · Post by **TheLegend** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:24 pm

Ages ago Paul mentioned that if we have 12 players it would be preferable to play three teams of four instead of two teams of six and, although I was originally opposed to the idea, I've been thinking about it more recently, and I've changed my mind.

The biggest problem with 6-on-6 games is that the offensive team has to lend the defensive team a player which is bad because it is a) time consuming and b) it sucks to be put in a position where you have to hurt your own team. If we had two teams of 4 in the field the team batting would never have to lend a player.

Of course this would make stat-tracking more difficult, but I don't think stats from games with fewer than 14 players should count anyway because a) the stats are harder to track accurately with that few players and b) stats will are artificially inflated due to a ridiculous number of at-bats (i.e. 10+).

anyhoo... discuss

tallguy · Post by **tallguy** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:49 pm

What he said.

onion · Post by **onion** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:01 pm

agreed. no stats, 4x4x4. i like the competitive difference. i would not like trying to get my own team out while fielding for the other team, not that i'd be the one sent out to the field, but that's not the point. i mean, i would probably end up makin' a key error in favor of my own team, which would make me feel extra bad. both options have the same flaw: they're wierd. baseball is played with two teams, and a team is a set group competing against another set group. that's why i think the stats shouldn't count. it's more of a schrimage (is that how it's spelled? i don't think so.) knowing my luck, i'd end up with six hits, none of which would help raise my average above two hundred. but, that's not the point. i just think they'd be better games, which is what everyone wants, right?

Post by **retep** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:18 pm

Fuck "Ghost Runners."

That's all I will say for now.

TheLegend · Post by **TheLegend** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:36 pm

retep wrote:Fuck "Ghost Runners."

That's all I will say for now.

Oh. I would envision one of the defensive players pitching, this eliminating the need for ghost runners.

edit: Also, having the 8th defender pitch instead of catch will save time, as we won't have to take the time to switch out catchers/gear every 1/3 of an inning

Post by **retep** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:19 pm

TheLegend wrote: Oh. I would envision one of the defensive players pitching, this eliminating the need for ghost runners.

Well, someone needs to make the argument that changing baserunners each at bat is better than loaning a fielder for an inning.

See, say a lineup is as follows:

Scott
Ollie
Pat
Seth

Follow this inning:

-Ken gets a single, followed by Ollie who gets a single.

-Pat pops out, runners stay.

-Seth gets a a fielder's choice, Ollie is out, Ken to third

-Ollie run for Ken, Ken bats, and gets a single. "Ken" (Ollie) scores, seth advances to sencond base.

-Pat singles, seth moves to third. Ollie runs for Seth.

-Seth gets on base, bases full.

-Ken gets a hit, and so on.

So, how is that better than having more stable teams, and having one person move around (to field)?

Also, there is the issue that, you gotta keep moving around. Defense needs to rotate. 4v4v4 games have no rythem to them.

onion · Post by **onion** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:55 pm

all i'll say is that having to run for a guy on your own team is far better than having to field for the other team.

Post by **retep** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:09 am

Do you not realize that in 4v4v4 you are fielding with and for the other team? A responsible player should play well no matter what. I threw out my own guy to end last week's game. Too bad, but I played right.

tallguy · Post by **tallguy** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:53 am

The point is not that, in 6v6 games, a player might not give 100% whilst fielding for the other team, it is that, even if he does, he won't enjoy doing it. 4v4v4 maintains the competitive aspect pretty well. I don't think it matters that when you're fielding, you are sharing the defense with some guys who are not on your team. The important, crucial difference is, no-one in the field is rooting for the hitter, at any time.

In 4v4v4, you won't ever need a ghost runner if one of the defense is pitching, unless someone is hurt and needs a pinch runner. And in that case, really you can't play 4v4v4 or 6v6 properly, so the pinch runner scenario is irrelevant.

I like 4v4v4 because you get a lot of ABs, and do a lot of baserunning. Who doesn't like that? I love it.

TheLegend · Post by **TheLegend** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:50 am

i see what peter is saying about switching out runners... but switching out runners is still preferable to switching out fielders because a) it's faster (they won't need to get their glove) and b) it maintains the competative spirit.

Post by **retep** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:52 am

..but it can be every play! And I find so many at-bats exhausting, and it takes away the importance of each one. Hard to focus and care about what is going on.

And, I for one, play defense to my best when I am on the other team.

tallguy · Post by **tallguy** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:29 pm

Exhausting baseball is good baseball, I say.

I for one, play defense to my best when I am on the other team

Again, I am not questioning how well people play in that situation, only asserting that it is not fun to do. Doesn't that matter?
I even used bold and italics.

Blancito21 · Post by **Blancito21** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:42 pm

yeah, it was pretty annoying this Sunday when I had to make a play on Ken's liner over the middle to end the game when I was on-deck. To not make the play for my personal interests would have gone against everything baseball but to say I wanted that at bat is like saying Peter wants the ball on the indside half of the plate so he can exhaust himself hitting long fouls. (chuckle)

onion · Post by **onion** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:55 pm

to reiterate, i don't think anyone would not be playing their best even when trying to get their own team out, just that it would suck to do so.

and, yeah, in a 4x4x4 you'd be fielding with another team, but you'd both want to get the hitting team out. that's the difference.

don't you think it's a lot easier to go from the hitting team to pitch running then having to get out to the field, possible for only a couple of ABs? i know it breaks up the flow to have to go out and run, even though you may be on deck, but the flow's gonna suffer when there are so few players anyway. the 4x4x4 will require more changes, but they'll be less interuptive changes, and it'll keep the competitiveness alive.

funny how last week the discussion was all about what to do when there are too many players, and now it's too few. rains gonna stop soon enough and all this will be mute (at least until next winter).

Post by **Baseball=Life** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:20 pm

Everyone take a moment to picture me playing defense for the opposing team at last Sunday's game. I was playing 2nd base. Ok, does everyone have me at 2nd for the other team in their mind now?

THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE DONE! If you recall, when I played defense for the opposing team, I tried my very best!! I even talked it up in the infield as though I was the leader of the opposing team! I was eager to get my teammates out! Playing baseball = playing baseball!!!!

Another example: Mario's webgem catch to get his own teammate out.

So, if you are playing defense for the opposing team, just pretend it's your team and try your hardest! Think about it..... going full out for a ball hit at you is much more fun than taking some half-ass approach to it!!!!

Oakland Park Baseball

12 players

Which would you prefer?

12 players