ROE

[retep]

More times hits are often given over ROEs:

-Bad throws on bunts with a fast runner and pull the 1B man off the bag, even if the throw beat the runner (The idea is that the speed of a runner forced a throw).

-Plays when an outfielder falls down, totally misjudges a ball, or takes an unexpected carom off the wall that eats up the fielder

-A ball that is dropped by a player due to a sliding runner.

-A bad throw that is forced by a player pushing for a double, triple, or inside the park home run (to be clear, I am talking about a bad throw to second base when the runner is going to second—but if the bad throw to second gets away and the runner goes to third, then it’s a double and an error).

-Poor effort by a player to get to a ball, for example, a player to merely sticks his glove out to get a ball, rather than move towards it—its lame, but not an error.

-Not throwing the ball: again, this is lame—throw the fucking thing if you have a good chance—but its not an error.

-Throws to the wrong base—dumb, but not an error (unless your throw is so bad that, while trying to thro to second, it goes to first….that’s just sad)

A lot of the above go against a previous statement of “if you think it’s an out, and its not, then it’s an error.” Its more looses than that.

Things that are errors (in my book)

-A hit ball—even a hard one— that is hit near a player but not fielded cleanly.

-A fly ball which is not caught when the outfielder has ample time under the ball—wind or no wind.

-Throws that result in an extra base for a runner that (with a good throw or without a bad throw) would not have been possible or likely even tried.

-Getting hit in the face, loosing a tooth, and not making the out. (OK, that’s mean. My point is getting hurt does not mean we should feel sorry and not charge an error: not saying we did this, just mentioning it”

-After a diving stop, the fielder has ample time to throw, and misses the throw: no single, ROE.

-After a diving stop, the fielder has little time to throw, and misses, and the player gets an extra base: single, and error on the extra base: hold the ball!

That said, we need a reminder: If you don’t know where to throw the ball, hold it, and run towards the pitcher’s mound!!!

Anyone wanna add to this?

[tallguy]

I actually started out writing this post to disagree with you, Peter, but after thinking it through as I wrote, it makes sense now.

It seems odd at first that on a "poor effort by fielder" play you give the batter a single, so he gets the benefit of the fielder's half-assedness. But, if the fielder gives 100% and dives, say, and the ball slaps into and out of his glove, that's an ROE. So the hitter gets nothing and the fielder is credited with an error, despite his extra effort. And the hitter might possibly have hit a real fierce drive along the ground, possibly deserving of a hit more so than the one which received a poor effort. He is robbed of the hit, due to the extra effort put in by the fielder.
However, think about this some more: it is the fielder's job to rob the batter of hits by giving 100%, and conversely, if they don't put the proper effort in, the batter will end up being awarded singles that should not have been.
So I agree with you Peter, basically, although it seems odd at first.

[TheLegend]

I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you, or just clarifying, but if the play is routine and the fielder makes no effort an error should be charged. For example, if there's a slow ground ball to the firstbaseman and he lets it roll past him, this is an error. If if there's a flyball at an outfielder who instead of catches it, moves out of the way, this is also an error. But if an outfielder is jogging towards a ball and doesn't get in position to catch it, or a infielder fails to charge a ball and thusly does not have time to make the play, it is not an error.

[tallguy]

You are indeed disagreeing, and I indeed disagree with your disagreement.

So there.

[retep]

I actually started out writing this post to disagree with you, Peter, but after thinking it through as I wrote, it makes sense now.

It seems odd at first that on a "poor effort by fielder" play you give the batter a single, so he gets the benefit of the fielder's half-assedness. But, if the fielder gives 100% and dives, say, and the ball slaps into and out of his glove, that's an ROE.

Not at all. if a player dives, and misses (assuming the dive was needed) then that's a hit, because of the extra effort. Maybe you are talking about the throw...?

[Baseball=Life]

Hey this is not my actual response to this thread, but I do want at this moment to clarify there can be a difference between "ROE" and noting a defensive "error". People seem to be mistakenly talking as though they're inherently the same scenarios. They can be, but aren't always the same thing.

A player can get a hit, and then a subsequent error can enable the batter-runner to advance another base. This player has not reached on error (ROE). Rather, he got a hit, then advanced an additional base on the defensive error.

[TheLegend]

for Peter/Paul: (from mlb official rules)

An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases. NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.


Note 1 is what Peter's point demonstrated, while I was trying to clarify note 2.

[Southpaw Slim]

Good research, Ken. That's exactly the point I was going to make.

[tallguy]

So we are all in agreement, then.

Hehe.

Seriously, the judgment of the scorekeeper as to whether the play called only for "ordinary" effort, or required more than that, is what it comes down to. There will always be disputed calls, and if the scorekeeper is uncertain he should ask for input, but I am 100% against this consensus idea. Well, OK, actually only 90%. I say it won't work, we frequently do not manage to get a consensus and it drags everything out. I say also the perfect accuracy of the stats is less important than keeping the game flowing.

[retep]

I agree that a player doesn't need to touch the ball: for example, like I said, if you're right under it and miss it. However, I have seen players in MLB not move on a ball, and no error is charged.
Note 2 is confusing, so that's why I reffer to the MLB, to see how they used the rule.

[Baseball=Life]

I'm still reading the entirety of this thread, but this post by Ken I had to quote, because it's pretty much exactly how I feel about hte subject.

We actually discussed this topic not too long ago.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that since we're bad fielders, an error should have to be more egregious to be considered an error.

I don't know where this idea came from that a play is either an e or a web gem... If it would've been a web-gem worthy play, then no error will be charged. Generally speaking, a web-gem worthy play is only one that takes what looked like a hit and turns it into an out.

An error is the exact opposite: An error is any play that should be an out, but allows the runner to get on base.

There's a lot of space between those two ends of the spectrum.

These plays are definately judgement calls... but you usually know. Most of the time I can tell as soon as the ball comes off the bat whether it's going to be a hit or an out. If the result surprises me, then i'm pretty confident it's a WG or an ROE.

I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking that if they hit a ball hard and get on base then it's a hit. This is not the case. If you hit the ball hard and it's right at someone, it should be an out (or an ROE). This was the case on sunday when someone hit a line drive down to thirdbase that landed in Pat's glove and popped out: clearly an error. It was a play that definately should've been made.

Once again, I agree with all of the above, especially about the relationship between webgems and errors.

I feel the same way about the controvercial play w/ Dorian at GG months ago. Yes, the ball was hit hard, but it was right at Dorian and he sould've made the play... error.

About this, I hear what you're saying and agree. I never really had that good of a look at the play, only a glance.

Anyway, so now I'll try to catch up with the rest of the thread

[Baseball=Life]

A guideline that often works for these apparent infield singles...

If someone reaches base on a play where the fielder touched the ball, but didn't make the play...... you must ask

if he had made the play, would it have been a possible web gem? If so, then the batter definitely got a hit.

Because if it wasn't any type of special play, like if it was routine (even hit hard but within range), then it's ROE.

[Baseball=Life]

A guideline that often works for these apparent infield singles...

If someone reaches base on a play where the fielder touched the ball, but didn't make the play...... you must ask

if he had made the play, would it have been a possible web gem? If so, then the batter definitely got a hit.

And when I say "possible web gem" I'm talking about something where someone gets one nomination (you know the type of plays i'm talking about, intermediate at hardest).

Because if it wasn't any type of special play, like if it was routine (even hit hard but within range), then it's ROE.