The home of park baseball

[TheLegend]

For those of you who have somehow managed to miss this: I HATE PLAYING AT DEFREMERY. I really do. It's not even that I would prefer to play somewhere else any more... I honestly do not enjoy the games we play at Defremery. It got the job done when I hadn't played baseball in half a decade and I thought it was the only option, but now that Raimondi and Curt Flood have presented themselves as valuable options, I don't see the need to play at Defremery ever again.

Defremery is so small that the game is utterly unenjoyable. The basepaths are so short that cleanly fielded ground balls are frequently hits and cleanly fielded line drives are frequenly doubles. The outfield is so small that a fly ball (that doesn't leave the yard) is almost always an out. There are barely any gaps in that outfield when there's average speed out there... but when there are two or three fast people in the outfield? forget about it... just hit the ball on the ground (or out of the park). Almost everyone has hit the ball to the wall at Defremery. I know Daniel has twice and he's about as far from a power hitter as we have in our group (sorry D... but you knew that already). Doesn't that say something? Doesn't the threat of a game turning into a HR derby just turn your stomach? Well, maybe not...

And what's the final effect of Defremery's unacceptable size? 30-27 games. Which sound like fun, but what it really means when both teams score 20+ times is that individual scores don't matter. One of the reasons I don't like basketball is that for the first three quarters of the game all you have to do is stay close. When we play 7-6 games or 10-7 games each run is much more important and in turn, playing well through out the game is more important.

I think Curt Flood is the perfect size and the grass infield (although it needs a trimming) is a rather nice counter measure to prevent every ground ball from rocketing past the infielders. IMHO, Raimondi is a too big (but still better than Defremery )

The only apeal that I see of defremery is that we all do better offensively and that gives us a big ego boost... which is nice, but I think it makes for a very dull game.

[TheLegend]

2 votes, no posts. Interesting. You guys don't want to share why you prefer defremery?

[Baseball=Life]

My only reply to you Kenyatte is that


':x' ':x' ':x' ':x' ':x' ':x'

You forgot your roots.


You forgot where you came from.


You sold out DeFremery!!!

':x' ':x' ':x' ':x' ':x' ':x'

You know the pros & cons of DeFremery, man, check all the other threads that describe them. My feelings have only changed a bit since the initial debate. My preference now is to have 1/2 the games at DeFremery (as opposed to 7/8 like I argued previously). Home runs matter! Playing the ball off the fence is fun! Making diving catches in the gap of the OF rules! Etc, etc. In fact, the only downside to DeFremery in my opinion are the small dimensions of the infield/basepaths. Just come out an play, Ken, c'mon... it's not the same without you there.

[TheLegend]

Home runs matter! Playing the ball off the fence is fun! Making diving catches in the gap of the OF rules! Etc, etc. In fact, the only downside to DeFremery in my opinion are the small dimensions of the infield/basepaths. Just come out an play, Ken, c'mon... it's not the same without you there.

I don't understand what makes you think these things wouldn't happen at curt flood. The only possible concern would be the lack of homeruns, but we had 4 balls hit to the fence in the first week! Do you really think there won't be any homers!?!?! I agree that homeruns are cool, but playing every game with a half dozen of them is not. It feels fake and takes away half of the gameplay (defense). Why not play at a field with all the upsides and none of the downsides?


I'm gonna go find those other threads you're talking about... but if my memory serves me correctly the only pro-Defremery arguments in those threads were:

"you're stupid!"
"Defremery rocks!"
and
"that's where it all started"

[TheLegend]

DeFremery
DeFremery park is a bandbox park similar to Fenway with the tall fence in left. It also has the added aesthetic of trees inside fair territory in right field. I can't think of any other field with trees in a playable area. It's somewhat small (expecially when visually compared to Raimondi, with the open area behind the fence) but has tremendous charm. It's in the heart of a neighborhood where there's always some activity going on. I like the sound of basketball and cars while we play. I love the huge oak tree overhanging the fence in left, perhaps the largest oak I've ever seen. I like having people from the area interact with us. I like inspiring local kids to play baseball.

Maybe this is more important than I would think to some people, but I come to play baseball. I want to play on the field that provides the best baseball game and frankly, don't care at all about the other stuff.

I also like the ability to rob a home run, which Raimondi lacks.

The odds of robbing a homerun at Curt Flood are as good, if not better than they are at Defremery. Since 90% of our homeruns are to left field and the LF fence at Defremery gives you a 0% of robbing one, but the LF fence at Flood does make it possible. Yes there will be fewer homeruns in general, but I doubt that there will be fewer homeruns to left at Curt Flood than there were to right at Defremery.

The play at DeFremery is of much greater intensity. Every fielder has to be on his toes, even the RF since any ball through the right side could easily turn into a triple. It keeps all our heads in the game, and leads to great drama and great baseball.

I'll give you this one. Defremery does force the defense to stay aware. I assume that the defense stays aware anyway, but that may or may not be the case.

The shift in momentum during games fuels my drive to play. I like the idea that my team can come back from a 9-run deficit in the bottom of the ninth. It makes every single play that much more important. There's an incredible value on that intensity.

This is just flat out wrong. As I said before, the importance of each play becomes less and less important as the amount of scoring increases.

The communication among a team is much easier, which is a vital aspect of teamplay. In Raimondi, I wouldn't even think to tell the RF to shade the line if I'm playing the left side. There would be a minute chance of me even catching his attention. But at DeFremery, if I had my back to the plate and had to know where to throw, even the catcher could tell me. I like that the team is more involved. It's something that draws me to the games we play.

Another decent argument. Although, Curt Flood is significantly smaller than Raimondi and I'm not sure if this would be a problem there. Also, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to relay a message from 3B to RF through the second baseman.

[TheLegend]

But, guys, do you really want there to be no Homeruns anymore? I'm talking none, zero, zilch Home Runs?! No Grand Slams? No Walk-Off HRs? And do you really want there to be no more hits off the fences? What kind of fun is it when runs are scored on single after single? Maybe we'll see more extra base hits in the future. We only had 2 extra base hits at Raimondi yesterday though (Cuong - 2B, Anthony - 2B).

Do you think this is an issue at Curt Flood?

And the basepaths being so long, it makes the no leadoffs rule hard to maintain. The forceout at 2nd is almost guaranteed on any ground ball. Yet, without a pitcher to hold the runner to a reasonable lead, allowing leadoffs would be hard to constrain to a reasonable level, especially when you take into account the fact the runner can go on contact.

I agree! I think we should abandon the no lead-off rule and allow the defense to pitch. I rememer when I played a few games with some of my friends in high school we allowed the defense to pitch (batting practice style) and never had any problems. I never did understand the assertion that if the defense is pitching they will of course be trying to get the batter out.

I think DeFremery has benefits. Obviously some people (though not all, it's worth pointing out) can hit Home Runs there. And the LF fence was measured to be 275 feet at DeFremery.... that's not actually that small! CF and RF at DeFremery are similar to Raimondi, probably 15-20 feet shorter.

As I stated before, I know for a fact that Daniel has hit it to the wall at Defremery. It's not a far cry from the truth that anyone is able to hit it out there.

But it's not just the ability to hit HR's. Slapping hits off the fence (a la Fenway Park in Boston) is fun too. And, as an outfielder, it's really fun to play a ball off the fence.

Again, not an issue at Curt Flood.

Also, while fielding out there, it's cool to be able to cover the gaps in left-center & right-center. We will not be able to cover-the gaps at Raimondi. I think the fact that you can cover the gaps at DeFremery helps to make up for the shorter distance to hit out the HR.

I disagree. At Defremery a fly ball is all or nothing... there are no gappers- just homeruns and outs. With the coverage the outfielders have, the skill of placing a hit is almost useless.

I bet the run scoring difference over time will only be maybe 20% higher at DeFremery.

Not sure, but I think the scoring differential has been much closer to 100%

Triples------getting a Triple at Raimondi (never mind an inside-the-park-HR) seems totally implausible, unless the outfielder falls down and it rolls all the way to the RF corner. Triples are one of the most exciting plays in baseball, most agree.

Not an issue at Curt Flood. We saw two triples the first week we were there.



Sorry if it feels like I'm making a fight out of nothing, but I in no way enjoy playing at Defremery and will not play at Defremery so I'm trying my best to convince the rest of you that it's better to play somewhere else.

[Rob C]

I wish there was a choice to have 2 home fields---DeFramery & Flood. Both are great places to play (for different reasons) and each offers a totally different tempo and over all playing experience. Switching between the two would be great. Or, heres an idea.... lets play 2 games a day-a late morning game at one, and a mid afternoon game at the other (or somehting like that).

In either event, I think that the current way of playing (self pitching, no lead offs, etc.. should NOT be changed. The current playing rules seems to be a good fit for the diverse levels of players that play.

[AntMoOAK]

While I don't like Curt Flood for personal reasons, it does present a better overall game of baseball and I would not be averse to playing there. Ken made some pretty good rebuttals to most of the points made for DeFremery. I do believe that homeruns are not far-fetched at Curt Flood. Eventually, they will go out- especially in left.

I like Defremery. I like the coziness of the field. I believe it fits the talent level of most of us. Homeruns are not always a given. I've only seen a couple of homer binges at DeFrem'.

All that being said... I come out because I like the game that is set up. I will play with you guys just about any where in the greater Eastbay (Oakland, Berkeley, Alameda, Richmond). Switching up every now and then between Raimondi, Flood, DeFremery... (and others) would be fun.

[retep]

I still haven't hit one out.

Isn't it odd... I was once a high-power, low AVG hitter! How things change.

[retep]

I would be totaly down with helping sert up a game in SF.... it would be like a true roda game (but both teams would be the visitors.) We have a few good parks, some with fences.

Who would like to have me set this up, for a game in like a month or so?

[Guest]

S.F. ??? Ewww ... but like a road game to RFK, Pro Player Stadium or the damn Metrodome... I'll be there

[AntMoOAK]

S.F. ??? Ewww ... but like a road game to RFK, Pro Player Stadium or the damn Metrodome... I'll be there

[Tayster]

I like playing more classic type of baseball. Less scoring, more defense, more intangibles counting.

And then, I like playing Derfermery type of baseball. I like coming up to bat 9 times a game (when we have 9-10 people on each team). I like the fact that you can come back from 9 runs down and win the game.

But what I really like is that we can go out week after week and just... play. See to me, it's not about where we play, I'm content enough that we do play. Both parks have their ups and downs, yes. I think that if people actually want to get better at the game then Curt Flood is a better place, but if people just want to go out and just whack some homers, Defremery is the better place. Me, I'm just going where ever the crowd goes.

On a side note, I agree with Ken that having the defense pitch is a viable option, but something that wasn't mentioned is if that's only with 8-9 people on each team. With the recent 6vs6, 7vs7 we've been having, that would not work at all.



P.S:

I know Daniel has twice and he's about as far from a power hitter as we have in our group (sorry D... but you knew that already).

Geeze man, stomp on my ego a few more times why don't you

[Dave L]

I pretty much agree with Daniel (Tayster). I'll play where ever. (However, the notion of driving into SF and circling around looking for parking, competing with perhaps 20 other guys doing the same is *not* very appealing...sorry Retep.)

DeFremery certainly has a cozy, warm vibe. And the home run fence is just the right combination of being challenging yet seemingly doable. And that kind of high scoring game play is fun.

But Curt Flood is a nice field. We are adults. Playing on a full sized infield does make sense. If any of us were to play in any other adult league at some point it would be nice to have had the experience of a full sized infield. Flood is signifigantly more intimate than Raimondi.

I think for now we should swap back and forth between DeFremery and Flood and continue to gauge how it feels to everyone.

[Baseball=Life]

Well, it looks like Raimondi is dying on the vine...

The above votes are consistent with my absolute intent to schedule games 50% DeFremery and 50% Curt Flood, once that football team leaves. So, at that point (about a month and 1/2 from now) we'll switch off each week, unless of course dialogue leading up to that time directs us otherwise.

I agree with Dave L and Daniel T that just playing ball wherever is fun. I love baseball and would even play it at crappy Lowell field if I had to. Remember that day when we went from DeFremery to Raimondi to Poplar? That's right, we're all die-hard baseball lovers.

Another passion I have in life is debate. I think it's fun to go back & forth on an issue. So don't take my love of debate as a sign that I wouldn't play baseball anywhere, because, in fact I would. Shit, I'd even play on cement if I had to.

So, back to the 'Where to Play' issue that Kenyatte brought up. Ken, I'm not trying to "BS you" as you mentioned. I'm just saying that, damn, the score from Sunday's game was interesting as hell! I think that you are mistakenly remembering the last few games we played at DeFremery before being forced to switch, you know, the games that provoked the "high turnout / game frequency" issue, because we had 25 people showing up. To me, those games were anomalous. I still agree with whoever said that scoring at DeFremery will probably be only about 30% more than other fields over the long run. Typical scores at DeFremery are 19-18, as opposed to typical scores at other fields, which are like 15-14.

I find it interesting that you're now emphasizing all the doubles at the Sunday 3/27 DeFremery game only mere days after basically saying this outcome wasn't possible. Remember, you said it's either a home run or an out, and there's no gaps. Well, my friend, you forgot about the balls hit off the fence for one, and, for two there actually are gaps at DeFremery, just ask anyone who played on Sunday. Especially to right center.

Anyone who witnessed the dramatic top 9th inning in Game 1 knows how fun DeFremery is. We came up in top 9th down 3, leadoff hitter William hit a solo shot (first HR of the game over the fence), then I doubled off the left-center fence (my first hit of the day, for shame). Then, in an awesome moment of drama, Rich hit his first Homerun, a monster shot into the wind in left-center, to score me and tie the game. Sure, we had 2 HR's in one inning, but they were also the only 2 HRs over the fence in the entire game.

One more thing to mention, we did move the bases back a bit than previously at the game at DeFremery on Sunday. This perhaps helped create the low score. They were probably back a few more feet than previously.