Oakland Park Baseball

i have always felt we should play as many live games as possible for many different reasons which i will list. im bring these up now cause well we just had a good live game and also i was under the impression that me and ken were the only ones who wanted more live games.

live games will make you better, now obviously our avgs are drop like rocks thats ok. since live games are always lower scoring they make every play count that much more. so the pressure forces you to become a better player. also when the pitches are called it forces your eyes to read the ball more. and i like my pitches high and away so in a non live game not only can i wait for it, i can even ask for it. in a live game these is not the case so live games will force me to hit pitches other than my favorite spot, which will eventually make me a better hitter.

real pitching, live game s the pitcher is or should be trying to get you out so it makes your appearance at the plate more meaningful. base stealing it an important part of the game. me and ken were talking and i said something like god that bomb outta the yard felt great, he resopnded by pionting out thaat the defence never even touched the ball on my HR as my team pitched to me. and since we dont have 20 fucking SB's a game any more, it makes the game better. leads taking a lead can be the differance from an out to standing up safe. i do feel people aare still getting way to big of a lead, but we are getting better as a whole. some one should never have a 15 foot lead. your lead is mostly affected by height, speed, skill of the pitcher. i say height cause say i have a 10 foot lead if i just fall over, thats 8 feet of ground i covered so its a half step and fall me. where most should be caught at 10 feet. also a lefty pitcher matters a lot.

some of our better players only want to play live games, eddie comes to mind

oh yeah bunts, pitching around

so this is just my 2 cents please say what you feel

i do enjoy the live games more than the non-live games and would like to play as many live games as possible. As Richard said live games are inherently more competitve and use an entire set of skills that non-live games do not use... frankly speaking, live games are baseball and non-live games are not. I know there are a few people who hate live games, but i believe that there are at least as many people who only enjoy live games along with those of us who like both but prefer live (yes, i also know that there are many of us who enjoy both but prefer non-live).

It seems to me that the group is pretty evenly split on this issue, so i am voting for 1 live game every other week (even though i would personally prefer all live all the time), because that seems the most fair to everyone.

I would also like to note that excessive walks haven't been a problem in the last few games, nor have (legit) stolen bases. Our pitching has gotten a lot better and the next step is to improve our catching. Passed balls/preventable wild pitches were (in my opinion) the only major downside to this weeks game.

edit: on a related note, i see no reason for live games stats not to be accurately tracked... i mean... they should be kept seperate... but i think they should definately be kept. I would be interested to see who our most dominant pitchers are (David fanned 6 in 3 innings of work, including 4 in his first 1 1/3 innings!), best base stealers, etc.

Even though today was an incredibly boring day for me due to a lack of players AND a bad day offensively, I put in vote for live games all the time. Even though it will take alot of time back in the batting cage or more live games to get my hitting back, I do like the total aspect of playing live baseball like when we were in high school. At 1st base, I am that much more in the game because you have to be. The live games also adds legitamcy to the group and NORMALLY there is a larger turnout of more skilled players. Don't get me wrong, I like the non-live games, but I am not averse to playing more live games if not all live games. The games have progressed. Wanton steals are down because the people playing the infield KNOW HOW to play the infield also as our normal catchers (Ken, Nick, et al.) have inproved, so has the reduced base stealing. The almost pickle play today is a perfect example of how we've improved on holding the runners and fake throws. The play was textbook, except that no one covered 3rd. As we play more, batters will get more aggressive and start taking more hacks.

All of our pitchers don't throw "heat' (Our heat being 55-70). I felt comfortable after newer pitchers came in with different styles- as with any baseball game.

There are plenty of opportunities all around to play live baseball. The point of this league is not to replicate opportunities that already exist elsewhere.

Baseball=Life wrote:There are plenty of opportunities all around to play live baseball. The point of this league is not to replicate opportunities that already exist elsewhere.

Thank you.

Can we stop rehashing discussions like this every few months? Been there, done that.

Baseball=Life wrote:There are plenty of opportunities all around to play live baseball. The point of this league is not to replicate opportunities that already exist elsewhere.

Do tell, what is the point of this league then? I was under the impression it was to play baseball for free with a bunch of good dudes who love the game, but all I see is a bunch of good dudes playing "softball with baseballs" who love to talk about the game and it's never-ending rulebook. We keep all these accurate offensive stats but how can any of us feel good about them when the true skill of hitting is unabashedly removed from the equation. I know there are a multitude of concerns about live games but even with less then the necessary amount of people to really play live, we did it yesterday without a hint of an issue. I mean even the old fake to third and turn around to first worked. (Note: while we failed to get either runner out I was still in disbelief that it actually worked.) I voted for live games every other week (gotta give the arm a break) because I know a small minority would prefer to have them once a season but it it seemed from my conversations yesterday that most would prefer live games. Honestly, what is the averison??? It baffles me that dudes (especially you Scott because I consider you one of the most skilled and competitve guys here) don't want to improve their game and test their skill set in real game settings. Complacency with batting practice atmosphere is....well it's downright against everything this game is about. If majority rules then I believe we have a legitimate discussion, but if this is Scott's gig and he has totalitarian powers then I will bite my tongue and not be heard from on this topic again.

retep wrote:

Baseball=Life wrote:There are plenty of opportunities all around to play live baseball. The point of this league is not to replicate opportunities that already exist elsewhere.

Thank you.

Can we stop rehashing discussions like this every few months? Been there, done that.

Scott: That was totally weak dude.

Firstly, if you know of somewhere in the area where those of us who are interested can play free baseball, then just point us in the right direction and (as far as i'm concerned) this conversation can be over. I've been looking for one for 5 years and have yet to find one.

Secondly, that's just a weak stance to take. We know you do a lot for this group, and we all appreciate it, and i know that you personally don't like live games (although I would appreciate an explaination as to why), but that's total b.s. to say "we can't even talk about this because I don't want to". That's just crap Scott. That's offensive and childish. How you can see all these people who are obviously interested in the idea and take that stance (without as much as explaining it) is beyond me.

Peter: This group changes constantly and as the group changes the consensus of the group changes. When the concensus of the group changes, then (in my opinion at least) it makes perfect sense for topics that have already been discussed to be discussed again, as our conclusions may change. I hope that makes sense.

Both of you: To my knowledge, you are the only two players in our group who hate live games (feel free to inform me if you know of more). I'm sure you guys have something worthwhile to say in this discussion, and I would love to hear it. I don't understand why you would make posts like this when I'm sure you have logical reason's why you don't like live games. Those of us in favor of the change have listed several reasons why we would like it- couldn't you guys give us one reason why you don't? My assumption is that you don't like our live games because you think we're bad at them, but we played yesterday (in less than ideal conditions) and I didn't hear a single complaint. Doesn't it say something that with 14 players, we all voted to have a live game (requiring not one, but two offensive players to take the field) as opposed to a non-live one?

edit: to be fair, Scott did give a logical reason, but to the best of my knowledge, his statement was untrue.

This group has grown a lot and I think playing more live games would continue the move in the right direction. Scott, a while ago you said that no one person was bigger than this league. I really hope that you actually feel that way.

i voted for all live all the time i know this probally wont happen but its what i want

well what i really is to play 162 games getting paid 20 mil a year and then win the world series but that probally wont happen either

One of the most interesting and dynamic aspects of baseball is the psychological confrontation between pitcher and hitter. The pitching has been excellent the last few live games I've been to, and that has made me, I feel, a more disciplined hitter. I feel like to miss out on that aspect of baseball decreases the intensity, reduces the competitiveness, and ultimately moves us toward mediocrity. Now I am happy playing any form of baseball, but I would rather play the best form of it with the hope of improving my game.

I felt this way before reading the comments in this discussion, and I feel so even more after reading what Richard, Ken, Dan and Anthony have said. I would love to have all live games, but that might not be the best for our arms (as Dan pointed out). Also... I am totally into compromising with those who don't like live games. So maybe every other game would be best.

The only issues I see with live games are:
1) quality of catching, while not bad, definitely needs to improve (myself included)... it sucks to watch a passed ball followed by an errant throw to 3rd so that someone can score.
2) when possible, we need to be more on the ball about warming up the pitchers so that there are not long, drawn-out warmups at the beginning of every half-inning.

These issues are heavily outweighed by the psychology of facing real pitching, lower-scoring games, and not waiting for a batter to sit on 20 pitches that aren't slow enough or inside enough. Other benefits of live games are pretty much summed up by Richard.

So what it comes down to, it seems, is that a lot of people want more live games. There is a tension here because ultimately it lends to the question of who is in control? Scott... you put in a ton of work and we all appreciate that you do everything to get this organized. I would like to ask you... are some people's voices more important than others? If not... it looks like we should go to live games every other week. If so, why?

Maybe more importantly, at what point/threshold will the collective opinion of the players outweigh the opinions of the privileged few? Does it have to be a 75% consenus? 90%? I think its important for you to define that for yourself, as the community of players grows and moves in the direction toward live games. Ultimately... what type of baseball community is this? As Dan pointed out, is it democratic or is it totalitarian?

I prefer democratic, but I can deal with totalitarian as long as I can keep playing baseball. I really would just like to know so that it is clear for everyone where you stand... so that we can either continue voicing our opinions, or just move on and play ball as is.

Thanks,
Peter Rich

Oh ya.... I couldn't add my vote, so you will have to do the math for yourself. But put me in the "Every other game is a live game" category.

I did get to add my vote... nevermind that last part on my previous post

[el pedro quote]The only issues I see with live games are:
1) quality of catching, while not bad, definitely needs to improve (myself included)... it sucks to watch a passed ball followed by an errant throw to 3rd so that someone can score.
2) when possible, we need to be more on the ball about warming up the pitchers so that there are not long, drawn-out warmups at the beginning of every half-inning.
[/quote]

well i would say the best catchers are ken, paul, nick, ahmer and from there it gets a little blurry. i think matt c. can do it but im not sure and havent seen him behind the plate in a live game. peter rich, scot, dave l., and some others that i havent seen enough of to have an opinion of

and catching, like pitching should be limited to a group that is proven and can do it. allowing uproven a new people a chance in blow out games or games that are just plain over. so if its 4-2 and the 5 inning thats just not the time for a guy like me to get behind the plate, or some one who isnt very good to come in and pitch. maybe when its 10 to 2 and the 8th or 9th... maybe

and the solution to the second is very simple. have 18 people so when one team is batting they warm up the pitcher.


peter im surprised you dont like live games i thought you liked being able to steal and have a more realistic baserunning experience. i rember i saying the thing like about live games is stealing and running the bases, or maybe it was the ONLY thing i like about live games is ... and thats just not enough for you.

scot i am really surprised at your post. i have been checking this thread semi-often and saw your post and all i thought was wow.

for one thing most people in these group identify you as the leader i know i do, but there is a difference between a leader and a ruler. and a leader is some who will do what is best for the group

scott i really hope im wrong and you where just to tired to post or something

also if i am coming across as narrow minded or i want it my way, thats not the cause . well i do want it my way but i am open to the middle ground as that well have the most people be happy

also i want everyone to put in their 2 cents in on these topic and vote that way we can see how the majorities feelings are

Before yesterday's game I was very ambivalent to live games, well, our live games anyway. But it was really good yesterday, and so now I feel a lot more positive than negative. A lot of people have said that to have a good live game we'd all need to play more than once a week, but I don't think that's so. The crucial thing is the pitching. We had two very good starting pitchers and everything fell into place from there. Competent catching is the second most important thing, I think. Hitting will get better the more we play live, just look at Ken yesterday. He was killing the fast ball.
Regarding getting bored in the outfield: In MLB it seems to me that the outfielders frequently don't get much to do for long-ish periods, whole innings sometimes. So that's part of real baseball, and we have to face that. Rotation of players through the outfield is an easy way to alleviate this. I am happy enough at first base, catcher or any outfield position, and there are many of us who are flexible like that.
And I don't think there are many live game opportunities out there, there are some leagues, yes, but they all cost money to my knowledge, and you'd be more likely to be stuck at one position all season since they have set teams. Plus most of them seem to be wood bats only. Having broken my first bat yesterday, I'm not about to spend $100 on a composite wood bat and still be unsure it might break.

I was only bored due to sitting in RF for stretches of an entire inning + 1/2 inning. (My defensive inning + their inning then my defensive inning again) Me and Paul did switch off and that helped. This is a non-issue as it only occured due to an incomplete turnout. Other than that, I don't mind playing anywhere on the field (except catcher).

I need to take a little time before responding to the above posts. Check back later if interested in a response from me.

Can we stop rehashing discussions like this every few months? Been there, done that.



Fuck. The reason that I didn’t wanna get deep in this is that we’ve had this discussion, and I’m tired of old discussions being brought up time and time again. Ken, I get what you are saying but there is an issue if I or other people just get tired of talking about something, then a decision gets made without those people. This is a pick-up league, and there is an “elite few” who pay attention to the forum.

Also, two points. One, baseball has never been democratic. Maybe that’s not right, but don’t start acting like we’re in Operation Baseball Freedom or something! And, two, this league has had issues with the loudest people being heard. We must remember that loudest does not equal a majority.

As far as Scott is concerned, I see nothing wrong with him saying what goes. I know no one will admit this (and many will rebut me) but if any of you worked for years to do the work of building the network and so forth, and then all of these people then decide what to do with what you have created, I bet you would be pissed. Scott has built this up, and without his by-in, I don’t see it as acceptable.

On to the actual issue of live games, we are not build to handle live games. To do live games, you need stable teams. Why? The subtle parts of baseball that come out in live games need this teamwork, like how to smoothly cover the bag on a steal, defensive communication, when to bunt—all of that. Also a part of this is that we need stable positions. That way, our week talent base (myself included) can really learn a position. Moving around each game is no way to learn.

Also, we either play live, or we don’t. The idea of going between live and non-live each week is lame. Yes, there are a few very good hitters who could make the switch, but for most of us, the switch between slow and fast pitching is too difficult. If we’re gonna get any good, its going to need to be consistent.

Are people willing to deal with this type of commitment? And I am not asking Ken and Daniel, I wanna hear from others as well.

There are also more play calls involved in a live game, and there are several people who have not shown the ability to deal with a call that they disagree with. Will this change?

Also, I just fuckin’ hate wearing batting helmets!