Oakland Park Baseball

Let me start out by saying that I love to play ball (softball and hardball), and am in fact addicted to it. I’m also one of those “recreational players” that plays for the fun of playing, and to hopefully get better over time. And while I play to win, winning at any cost is not the goal of the day. For myself, and others like me, at the end of the day, what really matters is--Did I have a good time (fun) playing , and, Did I play well? Most likely by the next day I’ll have forgotten who won what game or what the score was. And to be honest, I could care less about stats.

In general people play their best defense when they’re playing in a position that they’re comfortable in, or better at playing. It’s my assessment that, with the exception of maybe 3 or 4 guys (who are somewhat better players) , everyone (including myself) are average in skill level, and any of the guys that regular play can probably play in most any position competently, and there would probably not be any significant degradation of the game, or significantly affect on a team’s chance of winning.

In my case, I typically play 1B at least 3 games a week, and am most comfortable there. But I also like to move around and get some variety. When I take infield practice before the games, its then that I get a good feel for whether I should be playing infield or outfield, or both, or neither. And this varies day-to-day. Over this last summer I was getting to play 5-6 days a week in local pickup games (some baseball, some hardball, some softball), and regularly played in all the positions (except pitcher or catcher) , and I was as good as most anyone else playing. I consider myself an average player (in terms of skills) as compared to most that play in pickup games (including this group), although I also acknowledge that there is still plenty to learn and improve on. But that is true of almost everyone else (with the exception of maybe 3-4 others in this group). I’d also acknowledge that my reactions and speed are somewhat slower than most, and that’s unfortunately just one of those things that comes with age.

Also in general (especially in a pickup group such as this), people play their best when they are actually having fun, and the atmosphere is supportive, and decisions are made on the basis of a consensus, rather than by one or two persons directing every aspect. I think the idea of having a team “captain” decide who plays where, does what, and what the line up will be is fine for a HS gym class or in a league setting. But for a pickup group where the players are usually somewhat strangers, these decisions should be by consensus.

In summary, when it comes to defensive positions, I (and only I) have a good sense of where I should be playing on a given day. It’s disheartening, and I object to being relegated to RF, or (if I’m lucky that day) 2B because I’m considered not good enough to play anywhere else. The number and nature of errors that I typically make are no different than most everyone else (including those who have posted that they are “disheartened” by other’s playing ability or efforts).

As far as a batting order, while I don’t mind being at or near the bottom of the order, its disheartening to be repeatedly stuck at the bottom because of poor stats, or because of a “lowered expectation”.

I’ve been playing with this group for a little over a year now. I come to play and have fun, and hopefully get better. Not be judged, ordered around, or be discriminated against. I know that I’m not the only one for who this has become an issue. There have been several others that I’ve talked over the period with that have experienced this, who have come, and have not returned after playing 1 or 2 games. It’s important to remember that this group is organized pick-up group, and there will be a variety of skill levels at play. If all those that show up to play aren't going be treated fairly and equally, then just advertise for good players and form a couple of teams and join (or start) a league. Pickup games are for fun, and should not be taken so seriously.

Comments are welcome (publically or privately).

Think of a musical group that is at a fair level of play. And then I join it. I am just learning bass, but they are experienced. I may b wanting to play some fancy notes, but the group regulates me to just playing root notes which are easy, because I am cutting the flow. While I can still play, I understand that my skills may influence the experience of the rest of the group.

Rob, you may remember that I was absolutely on your side when it comes to how other people in our baseball group act very rude when someone makes a mistake. I think there is a much greater need for respect. However, we have gotten better, as a group, of not jumping down someone’s throat on each mistake.

But I believe there is something to be said for people being honest to themselves and the group regarding their skill level at a given position and respect for having an smooth and enjoyable experience.

I am an outfielder by trade, but at times I insist on playing infield (usually because of my damn ankles). But when I get my wish, I acknowledge the fact that this is not where my best talents are, I actively seek out support and advice to improve my own abilities and to help the team. One time at Franklin, Nick gave me advice for my play at second base for about a half hour after the game while to took groundballs. At first, I was annoyed, but then say that his observations really paid off (thanks Nick!).

I’m not sure how to conclude this, but I guess I will say that people should not be rudely forced into playing a position they do not like, there is a need with up to 20 people playing baseball that people make honest assessments of their abilities and welcome (or even seek out) input about how they can improve.

This boils down to the old play to win vs play for fun problem. I am far less competitive than most people, I think, so you have to keep that in mind when I say that I would rather that everybody has fun than that we field two strong teams that will probably have some people playing out of the preferred position, either because someone else is better or because the preferred position is not their best (or both!).
Like I enjoy playing catcher for some reason, but am not very good at it. With practice of course I'll get better, but I will never be well-suited to it physically. First base is probably my best position, but not my favorite.
Basically I'm with Rob on this one, although I do not think it acceptable to leave when one gets upset, or play a non-preferred position half-heartedly. You need to give 100% still, and wait till the end of the half-inning to make your feelings known. We're an pretty generous bunch overall, and someone will probably trade positions with you, or at least agree to switch off every inning.
Ken has a tendency to take charge and order people into positions, due to his strong desire to win overriding his (engage deadpan mode) gentlemanly nature (deadpan mode off) . I don't like that, and we should definitely have more of a consensus process instead of that. But typically we do, I think.
There is a wide spectrum of personalities present at our games, and some clashes are inevitable. You just have to hang in there. Free baseball will alwys be worth it.

No, no, no.

Here's my response to Rob's post:

Thanks for your past participation, Rob, and I'm sorry our style of play wasn't right for you. I know that you will continue to find opportunites to play the way you prefer in other leagues, including your own.

Sorry it's not how you would do it, but the competitiveness is here to stay. Our "league" simply isn't for everyone.

Thank you, Scott.

To Rob:
I know I've been rude to you before, and I apologize. I don't mean to be rude, and when I move people around defensively it's not to insult anyone in any way, I try my best to put the most competative team on the field. Sometimes putting the best team possible on the field means some people (including myself) have to play somewhere where they don't particularly want to play. You have to remember that this is a team effort and most of us do care about the outcome of the game. For one person to say, "I don't care about the outcome of the game, so I refuse to do what's best for the team" is extremely disheartening to me personally, really hurts team morale and in my opinion is completely unacceptable in a team sport or any sort of group effort.

I guess there's no way for you to know this, but after you left we all had to do a lot of jumping around every inning. In any given inning, out of the 6 of us out there, there were probably only 1 or 2 people who were playing at their best or most desirable position. Why? because sometimes the position that you feel most comfortable at is not the best position for your team to play you at.

Also, It's not like we didn't give you a chance at first base. You started at the position you wanted to play, and only after making two really bad mistakes were you moved. And the other person who was moved, our thirdbaseman, who had also made two really bad mistakes. I didn't just arbitrarily ask you to move. They scored 9 runs before we recorded an out... if this was the MLB, that would me it was time for a pitching change, but the best we can do is shake up the defense.

To others:
I know I've said before that the most important thing to me is winning... the more I think about it, the more I think that this is untrue. The most important thing to me is playing a hard faught game... followed closely by winning. I would rather lose a game 8-7 than win one 19-5... I remember that game at raimondi when Peter robbed me of that hit in the 9th inning... we lost that game... but I still remember it as one of the most fun, most exciting games we've ever played... becuase I felt like everyone on the field gave 100% that day... something that, sadly, I don't feel every week. For me personally, I feel like I have better things I can do than traveling about an hour to play in a half-hearted game of baseball...

tallguy wrote:Ken has a tendency to take charge and order people into positions, due to his strong desire to win overriding his (engage deadpan mode) gentlemanly nature (deadpan mode off) . I don't like that, and we should definitely have more of a consensus process instead of that. But typically we do, I think.

I tend to take charge becuase, frankly it needs to happen, and usually no one else wants to do it. Sometimes, for the good of the team and of the game someone simply has to be told where they're go to field and where they're going to bat... I'm very vocal about my opinions on these matters, but I am open to logical discussion. Also, a lot of times the team as a whole needs a reminder of what's going on (we need a thirdbase coach!... play's at second guys!... outfield, let's shoot home!) and I would rather be the one to say these things and look like I'm bossing people around than to not have them said and regret it later.

I applaud everyone for being thoughtful in the posts so far in this thread.

Yeah, it's really just a simple cost-benefit analysis:

The benefit of having a competitive, close game far outweighs the drawbacks of not having an official consensus process. I consider this elusive consensus-building process (as of yet uneluciated) to be a utopian notion.

The key to getting to play "where you want" is to make the cost of not having you placed there too high to ignore---ie, we've got to have Phil at SS or they (other team) are going to really take advantage, or whatever.

I like what Ken said about how he'd rather lose a close game than win a blowout--that really conveys the point about how close, competitive games are more fun. It brings up the question, Which comes first--competitiveness creates fun or fun creates competitiveness? I believe it's the former that is true.

Though it may not be pleasant when told to switch positions, I think props are due for those who show the iniative to lead the team. The defense was set up much better after Ken's intervention.

Ours isn't a normal pick-up league. In pick-up leagues you don't track statistics, and you don't carefully choose teams based on dividing offensive and defensive skills equally. It's much more random. In fact, are there really such things as "pick-up leagues"? I suspect not, aside from our arrangement and the thing Rob does in Alameda.

Our arrangement really represents a middle-ground... where it's a bit more competitive than folks having a pick-up game, but not so formalized that you have to remain with particular folks on a team from game-to-game, or have to face real live pitching for that matter, etc.

Baseball=Life wrote: I like what Ken said about how he'd rather lose a close game than win a blowout--that really conveys the point about how close, competitive games are more fun. It brings up the question, Which comes first--competitiveness creates fun or fun creates competitiveness? I believe it's the former that is true.

Bravo!

I want to re-make my point about how if someone show's an effort to improve, and hear some feedback on how they play. To me, learning and improving is fun. Being stuborn and not improving is boring.

I am very excited about how this thread has developed. To add to all the many important points already made, I just have a couple things to say.

With the way turn-out has dramatically dropped off since July, (Will, Shawn, Daniel, Dorian, Nick C, Sterling, Sean, etc. have not shown up for a game since we started playing at Golden Gate) it's important that we keep as many people involved in the game as possible. This requires a careful balance of catering to people's desires to play certain positions and keeping the game competitive enough to keep both teams involved. We can't let one person play somewhere just because they want to, but we also can't force someone to play the same position every game unless they actually enjoy it. I saw a good example of this in the last game at Flood where we moved people around a little and kept everyone a little bit more focused on the game.

Secondly, you have to be able to swallow your pride and play a position you don't like a couple times. If someone on the team shows up who's better than you at a position, relegate it to that person for the sake of the game. If your team gains a huge lead, then you can ask to play your preferred position. Personally, I love to play in LF, but when Will started playing with us it was obvious he was best utilised if placed there. So I took RF instead for a handful of games. I got a little indignant at first, but it started to grow on me. I think it helped me as a person, teaching me that I have to accept what I may think of as a position-related "demotion" in order to let everyone else have fun. And with the improvement in RF over who would have been our weakest fielder, the overall defense was improved by a huge margin since RF wasn't an "easy base" anymore. It forces the other team to hit into your defense. Now that Will's gone, I can play left for a while. But more than that, I actually want to play RF now. I've learned to see it as a challenge instead of a drawback. However, and I'd like to make this perfectly clear, if I was forced to play RF every single game then I would probably get fed up with it and leave too. It's important to move people around to keep them interested. However, don't overestimate your athletic ability. If you think you're a hot shit shortstop then let everything go by you, give it up to someone who can field and move to a position better suited to your abilities.

Furthermore, the offensive lineups are always based on what we (usually as a team) decide to be the best possible combination to bring home some runs. Not everyone gets to hit where they want to. If you want to move up in the lineup then take the time to practice batting. Hit the cages and move up like Paul did. Don't complain about being placed low in the order if you haven't proved that you should be somewhere higher. Baseball is a team sport and has to be won as a team. Or lost as a team. But still played as a team.

Southpaw Slim wrote:However, and I'd like to make this perfectly clear, if I was forced to play RF every single game then I would probably get fed up with it and leave too. [/b]

I'll be sure to start working on facilitating that for you, Nick.

Why didn't you just let this thread die? Look at the date of the last entry before posting next time please.

Baseball=Life wrote: Why didn't you just let this thread die? Look at the date of the last entry before posting next time please.

I'd just like to briefly express my support for free speech and the open exchange of ideas and information in the forums.

Southpaw Slim wrote: It's important to move people around to keep them interested.

I don't think that it is a good idea to rotate people out of sympathy if they lack ability. Getting bored in a position that one is sent to involuntarily should motivate one to get better at preferable positions. By putting players in their less than optimal positions, you do two bad things. First, you make the game not fun for others. Second, it eliminates a strong incentive for one to become a better player (and thus, rewards poor play).

Consider how many people were not good players when we came out for the first time. I know I was garbage. I couldn't net balls hit right to me and now I get most. Paul is probably the best example. Balls used to bounce in and out of his glove and he used to strike out often with his funny swing. Now, Paul is one of the best players all around at baseball. Dave has also improved a ton.

I know that I, and each of the above people, have practiced hard, have gone to batting cages, and done other things to improve our skills and get good enough to play a better position or get a better spot in the lineup. I encourage people who are unhappy with their position or skills to join me at the cages or practice field (when I’m in town).

We all should be willing to move. I like SS, but I’m surely not the best. When Pat (or anyone clearly better) comes and is on my team, I move to 2nd base (or other positions) without grumbling. Others should do likewise for a good game of baseball.

- Trizzle

dtrizzle wrote: We all should be willing to move. I like SS, but I’m surely not the best. When Pat (or anyone clearly better) comes and is on my team, I move to 2nd base (or other positions) without grumbling. Others should do likewise for a good game of baseball.

Truth!


PS: In the interest of more accurate disclosure, Rob has probably spent more time in the cages and playing additional non-Oakland Park Baseball games than any of the rest of us.

I was surprised at the number of comments that my post generated. Who knows, maybe something good has or will come of it. At the very least I got to vent some, and at the same time made a point which sparked some discussion.

In any event, I just wanted to let you all know that I actually did try to improve my skills and play my best (most of the time), AND for the most part (despite some of the issues that I brought up) I had a great time playing with you all, and usually looked forward to playing on Sundays. I wish everyone the best of luck, and lots of fun.

dtrizzle wrote:I don't think that it is a good idea to rotate people out of sympathy if they lack ability. Getting bored in a position that one is sent to involuntarily should motivate one to get better at preferable positions...

... Dave has also improved a ton.

Dave is a perfect example. When we started playing, I wouldn't have considered putting Dave at 3B, but he's improved all-around. We never would have known how well he could handle 3B if we never tried playing him there. I'm not advocating letting shitty people play crucial positions, like Nick W. at SS for instance, but it is worthwhile to give people a chance and see what happens sometimes.

In retrospect, I agree with the decision Ken made at the last Golden Gate game. We had already fallen deep into a hole due to defensive mishaps, and action needed to be taken. I'm not sure it was handled in the best manner, but then again, I don't know what would have been better. Anyway, I'm not looking to stir up controversy, but I always thought the point was to make the game the most fun for the largest number of people. This doesn't mean it can't be fun for everyone unless we have different ideas of what's "fun." Anyway, I'm babbling at this point and should "let this thread die."

Baseball=Life wrote:Why didn't you just let this thread die? Look at the date of the last entry before posting next time please.

WTF?!?!

I don't really care where I play. I know I'm generally a defensive liability when it comes to fly balls (though I'll bet with practice I could get a lot better). However, I can usually handle a grounder pretty well and can get an accurate throw to first (um, but not from third). Hence the fact that I usually settle in at 2B, or in RF.

It would be kinda fun to play SS once in a while, but I've never asked, because there's about a dozen people or more who can play it better.